AWDF/FCI team

[Danny]

Marina did not do anything that is in violation of the AWMA bylaws, so why or better yet how could the AWMA board reprimand Marina while going through the proper channels?

Ivan was not chastised for a "frisbee in his pocket". Ivan's unsportsmanlike conduct was in clear violation of the AWDF rules. It was not the place of the AWMA to reprimand Ivan for breaking AWDF's rules. This is how I feel the AWMA has and should handle this situation with Marina.

The real issue here is that the AWDF has not gone through proper channels within their own organization in suspending Marina for three years.

David, I think you are missing the emotional content of this situation. Technically you are right. However, when people and organizations feel disrespected they tend to react intensely. Ivan's frisbee was a simple oversight and everyone knew it. There was no disrespect. Marina's behavior (which, I'm sure, she didn't intend) was completely disrepectful of the host organization. I'll bet you dollars to donuts her situation is the AWDF's way of sending a very clear message to the AWMA that they will not tolerate irresponsible behavior. Period. When you do something stupid and the boss tells you so and then you go and do it again, prepare for the hammer to fall....and justly so.

[Christopher Smith]

There’s nothing technical about it, David is absolutely right. There is a reason clubs have rules and bylaws.

I truly believe that the vast majority of bad choices that dog clubs make are firmly rooted in emotion and personal issues.

[Team Soleil]

This is not directly relevent to the argument but just to set the record straight I would like to say my piece.

Keep your head in the sand Mike. I guess everyone is just making things up about us poor, persecuted Malinois owners. I suppose none of us ever gets drunk in public and then works our dogs - even if there is video of it posted. Basically if you think drinking and dog sport go together at the same time, then you're the type of person that causes our entire organization to be looked down upon. If you think it's funny to make your dog drink tequila, then you're part of the problem. If you think your dog is something to f*ck around with for your and your friend's entertainment, then you belong back in middle school. Let's see what my dog does after I blow this bong hit down his nose. Ha, ha, ha. This is great fun! I suppose you know all about the working dog community in San Diego too.

What Danny? Are you just jealous because the cool kids never invite you to play? So it is drunken handlers that have given the breed a bad name? Not handlers who take on dogs harder then they can handle then try socializing them in Home Depot where they nearly eat someone then eat their old pet cats and break their young girlfriend's arm? Sorry, but I would think video evidence of a working Malinois playing nicely with a drunk girl (who falls on top of him) would be good for our breed's reputation. Oh and we ride our horses drunk too!

However, I did misspeak. The hold and bark and hotel lobby embarrassment occurred at the Mali Nationals in Washington.

Yes, and the dog was owned by a local who was not entered in the event. The good news is most places we are mistaken for scrawny GSD mixes so another breed gets the blame.

And we just had a club trial where the same boorish behavior was occurring. It really is a shame when club members are bugging me while I'm trialing to tell me that the Malinois group that is visiting is going on an alcohol run so they can drink while they watch the trial. No matter that we could lose the field that we've had for 8 years because of the presence of alcohol. That really sets a great example. And - for what it's worth - saying unkind and impolite things about dogs that are trialing that can be heard by everyone in the crowd is uncool. Even if the dog is the worst dog in the history of the world!

Gotta love Danny...as you may have guessed friends...Danny is talking about the San Diego LdS family. In truth we made a burrito run (we didn't want the bratwurst they were serving) and came back with Mexican food and Mint Milanos from 7-11. We didn't even spike our Gatorade! Funnier yet, we were very impressed with the overall quality of the dogs entered in the trial and the level of training. Many of the people entered were our friends and have quite good dogsWith one notable exception all dogs had better than average obedience. In fact we made many comments on how Danny's Chomsky's heeling looked much better than the last video he posted and were trying too guess which of his bitches he would enter in the "Battle of the Ones" at the Mali Nationals since they both looked nice. The only negative comments I recall making were regarding Jim's long bite...and as he is a fairly cute guy...we were even being kinder than usual with those (in his defense he admited they never practiced the long bite so it really was the fact that his club did not prepare him properly before setting him out on the trial field with a bunch of fast dogs running at him).

But what fun would it be to say the LdSol crew was on their best behavior and said nice things about the dogs entered...and how would it bolster up your argument?

Finally, are you equating Marina to a 5 year old? How do you know if the punishment does not fit the crime? Are you now the official crime/punisher measurer? I thought 'W' was the decider. Go back to listening to your AM radio claptrap where you hear phrases like 'the punishment does not fit the crime,' and then drive around mouthing them. “Stay the course!" Brother….. [/quote]

[Lynnea]

I usually try to stay out of these things, and I don't know enough about by-laws and whatnot to argue politics, but I would like to clarify some of the facts.

Regarding Marina and Simba at the AWDF, BOTH incidents happened BEFORE Marina was addressed by the AWDF Board. Marina did not have Simba off leash after her meeting with the board. She did not get reprimanded and then turn around and let another mistake happen.

Marina and I shared a car and hotel room at the AWDF and because of this were together almost constantly. Marina is generally a responsible and good person (apparently unlike most of us, according to Danny), she was not trying to be disrespectful. The incidents that happened were due to lack of experience.

The AWDF was my first National trial and Mowgli is my first real Schutzhund dog. I had my dog off a leash there too. Why? I have been competing in different dog sports since I was 15, and have NEVER run into a problem. I have titled dogs in Flyball, Agility, AKC Obedience, put a BH on my first Mal, and been to countless other dog events. I can guarantee my dogs have been off leash at every one of them.

Mowgli is off leash before going onto the field every night I go to work with my helper. He was off leash getting ready for all three of his trials before the AWDF. I let my dog off a leash because I know I have good control over him. NO ONE ever told me that it was frowned upon. I had no idea that I was being disrespectful.

I have been very conscious of keeping Mowgli on a leash since the incident at the AWDF, because now I know better. I think Marina was just as ignorant as I was going into that trial. My point: neither of us would have intentionally broken rules (or custom, or taboos), we were just unedjucated.

As for Danny's most recent trial... I don't know what the hell he's talking about! I had to work that day and got to the trial late, right before protection started. I went to the trial to cheer on Mowgli's sister, Mona. Lisa, Simon, and I went on a quick run for Mexican food, NOT alcohol.

I did not drink there. Lisa did not drink there. I watched the trial, talked to some of the friends I train regularly with, and tried to guess what the scores would be after every routine (which is something I've done at every trial I've been to in the last year, National and club alike). I do not usually "talk shit," and don't remember talking any shit that day.

Honestly Danny, where do you get your information?? Lighten up a little bit. Hell, have a drink, you might have a little bit of fun every once in a while!

[Mike Baker]

Thanks Lynnea, it doesn't seem like anyone believed me that the 2 occurances happened in a different order than what the AWDF blamed her for. This has recieved more attention than I would want on a public forum, but when there are consequences for Marina actions (which she is respectful enough to own up to) the facts should be represented and you should be punished on facts, not rumor.

[Christopher Smith]

At all AKC events the dog must be on leash unless contained or in a designated area. Further, in most of the premiums it states that the dog must be on leash.

Section 10 of the AKC agility rule book states:
Dogs shall be on leash at all times when on the
show grounds except in the ring and at the warm-up
jump area.

Section 16 of the AKC obedience rule book states:
Use of Leash. All dogs must be kept on
a leash except when in the obedience ring, warm-up
ring, or exercise area and must be brought into and
taken out of the ring on leash. Dogs must be kept on
leash in the ring when brought in to receive awards and
when waiting in the ring before and after the Group
Exercises. Except where otherwise specified in these
Regulations, the handler will leave the dog’s leash on the
judge’s table or other designated place. The leash must
be made of fabric or leather and need only be long
enough to provide adequate slack during the Heel on
Leash exercise.

We all screw up. This is not just a LDS or Malinois issue. But in IPO you assume liability for yourself and the dog through out the event. Marina knows she screwed up, did the right thing, showed her character, stepped up to the line and accepted her punishment. Sometimes it’s hard to do the right thing. Lets not diminsh this by saying that she’s just a babe in the woods and didn’t know any better.

BTW, since this incident I have seen people that know of it at a major event with their dogs off leash.

Has anyone thought about the victim? Just imangine your walking out the trial jitters with your dog when....WHAM! some dog comes out of nowhere and hits your dog. We could very well be having a discussion about “was it right that the shepherd guy stomped the little Mali to death when it pick a fight.”

[Danny]

This is not just a LDS or Malinois issue.

Obviously this is a problem that affects all dog sport organizations. The following is excerpted from the most recent issue of Schutzhund USA.

This from Kathy Moacanin, Chair of the Magazine Committee (p. 11)

“It was distressing to me how little regard many of the entrants at the Sieger Show had for the host hotel, and their own dogs, in fact! There was dog feces and urine everywhere, a dog died in a hot vehicle, there were no fewer than six calls to the parking lot for dogs locked in hot cars, and Animal Control was patrolling the parking lot on Sunday. Even my four-year-old daughter was distressed when she saw a dog pee on the elevator door, and in fact, she chased the woman down when she obliviously walked away from “the scene.”’


This from Randall Hoadley, Vice President of the USCA (p. 33)

"Since the Sieger Show, USA has been bombarded with phone calls and e-mails about the conduct of its members. In addition, numerous e-mail groups are running public threads focused on these problems.

Just a few of the comments/problems are as follows:
• Dogs defecating in the host hotel
• Dogs urinating the host hotels
• Dogs locked in vehicles in extreme temperatures (in one recent case, a dog die!)
• Abusive training behavior
• Individuals not following USA rules
• Individuals not being sensitive to their surroundings
• Individuals not being held accountable for their actions
• Individuals not protecting the sport
• Individuals not protecting the breed they love so much
• Individuals threatening to call animal rights on their fellow members

I encourage each of you to reflect on the actions listed and consider how the organization should react. I also encourage each of you to examine your own actions and consider how they reflect on your breed and your organization."

[Team Soleil]

What a relief...I thought we were the only riff raff out there. Glad to hear we have company.

[Christopher Smith]

Naw, your just the poster children.

[Gunny]

This is not directly relevent to the argument but just to set the record straight I would like to say my piece.

Keep your head in the sand Mike. I guess everyone is just making things up about us poor, persecuted Malinois owners. I suppose none of us ever gets drunk in public and then works our dogs - even if there is video of it posted. Basically if you think drinking and dog sport go together at the same time, then you're the type of person that causes our entire organization to be looked down upon. If you think it's funny to make your dog drink tequila, then you're part of the problem. If you think your dog is something to f*ck around with for your and your friend's entertainment, then you belong back in middle school. Let's see what my dog does after I blow this bong hit down his nose. Ha, ha, ha. This is great fun! I suppose you know all about the working dog community in San Diego too.

What Danny? Are you just jealous because the cool kids never invite you to play? So it is drunken handlers that have given the breed a bad name? Not handlers who take on dogs harder then they can handle then try socializing them in Home Depot where they nearly eat someone then eat their old pet cats and break their young girlfriend's arm? Sorry, but I would think video evidence of a working Malinois playing nicely with a drunk girl (who falls on top of him) would be good for our breed's reputation. Oh and we ride our horses drunk too!

However, I did misspeak. The hold and bark and hotel lobby embarrassment occurred at the Mali Nationals in Washington.

Yes, and the dog was owned by a local who was not entered in the event. The good news is most places we are mistaken for scrawny GSD mixes so another breed gets the blame.

And we just had a club trial where the same boorish behavior was occurring. It really is a shame when club members are bugging me while I'm trialing to tell me that the Malinois group that is visiting is going on an alcohol run so they can drink while they watch the trial. No matter that we could lose the field that we've had for 8 years because of the presence of alcohol. That really sets a great example. And - for what it's worth - saying unkind and impolite things about dogs that are trialing that can be heard by everyone in the crowd is uncool. Even if the dog is the worst dog in the history of the world!

Gotta love Danny...as you may have guessed friends...Danny is talking about the San Diego LdS family. In truth we made a burrito run (we didn't want the bratwurst they were serving) and came back with Mexican food and Mint Milanos from 7-11. We didn't even spike our Gatorade! Funnier yet, we were very impressed with the overall quality of the dogs entered in the trial and the level of training. Many of the people entered were our friends and have quite good dogsWith one notable exception all dogs had better than average obedience. In fact we made many comments on how Danny's Chomsky's heeling looked much better than the last video he posted and were trying too guess which of his bitches he would enter in the "Battle of the Ones" at the Mali Nationals since they both looked nice. The only negative comments I recall making were regarding Jim's long bite...and as he is a fairly cute guy...we were even being kinder than usual with those (in his defense he admited they never practiced the long bite so it really was the fact that his club did not prepare him properly before setting him out on the trial field with a bunch of fast dogs running at him).

But what fun would it be to say the LdSol crew was on their best behavior and said nice things about the dogs entered...and how would it bolster up your argument?

Finally, are you equating Marina to a 5 year old? How do you know if the punishment does not fit the crime? Are you now the official crime/punisher measurer? I thought 'W' was the decider. Go back to listening to your AM radio claptrap where you hear phrases like 'the punishment does not fit the crime,' and then drive around mouthing them. “Stay the course!" Brother…..

[/quote]


Actually the club did try to School me up on the courage test....I am just a "slow learner" HAHA!

I was pretty happy with that. it was not pretty but it was not ugly....But I did not send any dogs to the vets office. I have seen ten times worse from experienced decoys.

My first trial I worked the ones, Back of the 2's and 3's 12 dogs in total. I am going to work on my craft...

Me and Lisa talked...I am assuming the negative comment was about me turning early with the dogs.... It was pretty obvious.

I am trying really to be cordual on this forum. I do not really know Lisa. I was at first judgemental, adopting others ideals. But I realized I do not really know you. So I figured I would could come to my own conclusions about LDS and Lisa Maze. So I do not take offense to your critique of my work. But I did have to state that my club, did make an effort to prepare me And a very large one. I am not sure exactly "How Bad" you felt my work was. Wade Wilde Even allowed me practise on his "annie". Danny allowed me train on his trial dogs. Jamming Chomskey in training one time very seriously. That shattered my confidence a bit. I tried to something with chimp that I was not yet prepared for....So I decided for the trial, I would not try anything new, and do what I knew would be safe. other club memeber allowed to train the long bite on thier dogs many times. I think anyone would be hard pressed to say that the work was not safe....And that I did it the same for every dog. And I maybe going out on a stretch here...But the work for a guy doing his first trial pretty friggin good. I have seen experienced decoys that could not catch Mona or Darka.

I did say that we do not train the long bite often. And we do not. For reasons I am assure every trainer here is aware of. But the club did not neglect to teach. I was stating my experience was to blame, not a lack of effort on the club.

I would ask that you not use me as your scapegoat to facilitate an argument to throw fuel on a personal resentment that has been fueling for years.--- and that is my experience.

This is getting really old, really fast.

[Danny]

I am trying really to be cordual on this forum. I do not really know Lisa. I was at first judgemental, adopting others ideals. But I realized I do not really know you. So I figured I would could come to my own conclusions about LDS and Lisa Maze.

Oh grasshopper....

If old man warn you about black widow spider, do you remain non-judgemental? Do you pick up the spider and determine for yourself if the old man's words are true?

[Team Soleil]

Sorry Jim, didn't mean to make you a "pawn" in my war against Danny (which used to feel good natured but now has taken on an ugly darker side). You seem like a good guy and to top it off you seem like a loving father which gives you brownie points in my book (in my experience dog people are often better at raising puppies than their own children.)

Your work was not bad. Yes, you were turning early and I think I understand why. First and foremost you were trying to be safe. Hurting dogs or yourself does no one a favor. I understand why your club limits the number of long bites becuase even done well they are a lot of wear and tear on both dog and decoy. Malinois can be scary fast and even a 45 lb female can knock your socks off. Did you see Mona's escape bite? Unreal...like she was shot out of a slingshot...I think she hit the sleeve from the sit. As for the rest of her routine, I do not blame you or your big feet. Mona is a sharp bitch that teeters on the edge every session but when that little girl pulls it together it is going to be something to see.

Oh and I do not know if you were one of the club members who thought we were drinking. I can understand their confusion as we can be boisterous and loud even when sober. You'll know when we are drinking...the lap dances are a dead give away (just kidding, mostly).

Pals again? Oh and if you are ever at the beach again on a Monday...bring that handsome son over yours over to where we are parked (by the Boy Scout Camp) and we'll take him on a pony ride.

[sch3dana]

Do you think that nervy aggressive people are attracted to nervy aggressive mals?

The white pony is pretty. What is it?

[Team Soleil]

Do you think that nervy aggressive people are attracted to nervy aggressive mals?

The white pony is pretty. What is it?

Speaking for Lynnea and myself...yes, our dogs temperaments do match ours in many ways. But what about Mike? He is laid back and hard to get riled...maybe the hot tempered, take action mals make up for it. My other breed is Border Terriers and you can't piss them off if you try. A helicopter could drop from the sky and my older bitch wouldn't bat an eyelash.

The white pony is "Sugar" a short chubby Arabian mare.

[Gunny]

Sorry Jim, didn't mean to make you a "pawn" in my war against Danny (which used to feel good natured but now has taken on an ugly darker side). You seem like a good guy and to top it off you seem like a loving father which gives you brownie points in my book (in my experience dog people are often better at raising puppies than their own children.)

Your work was not bad. Yes, you were turning early and I think I understand why. First and foremost you were trying to be safe. Hurting dogs or yourself does no one a favor. I understand why your club limits the number of long bites becuase even done well they are a lot of wear and tear on both dog and decoy. Malinois can be scary fast and even a 45 lb female can knock your socks off. Did you see Mona's escape bite? Unreal...like she was shot out of a slingshot...I think she hit the sleeve from the sit. As for the rest of her routine, I do not blame you or your big feet. Mona is a sharp bitch that teeters on the edge every session but when that little girl pulls it together it is going to be something to see.

Oh and I do not know if you were one of the club members who thought we were drinking. I can understand their confusion as we can be boisterous and loud even when sober. You'll know when we are drinking...the lap dances are a dead give away (just kidding, mostly).

Pals again? Oh and if you are ever at the beach again on a Monday...bring that handsome son over yours over to where we are parked (by the Boy Scout Camp) and we'll take him on a pony ride.

I hope you do not blame my big feet. They never touched Mona. I thought Monas catch on the LB was my best work of the evening. But as for Mona, I have always liked her, I think she is nice bitch. And I like Lise', her handler, Lise' husband scott. They both supported me and Addie on our BH from the sidelines. I was very appreciative of thier support.

As for the drinking. I have no idea if you were drinking, Made a run or the like. The first I have heard about it was here.