WUSV impressions?

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WUSV impressions?

Postby annecamper » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:42 pm

I know a number of people who are AWMA members were spectators at the WUSV this past weekend. Impressions? Comments? Wish I could have been there too....

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Postby LFlo » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:08 pm

Got a call from a die hard GSD person from the venue at WUSV. Her comment to me was "I will admit now that the quality of the competitors, the handling and the dogs at the AWMA Championship was better than what I just saw at the worlds."
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Postby Gunny » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:26 pm

Second hand info, but I heard the same...from someone else.

A friend of mine at the AWMA natties was seriously stunned by the AWMA obedience routines compared to other big events.

I have to admit although a little intimidating that a lot of the routines were really good. I notice many of the competetiors this is thier first dog... I am sincerely excited where these folks are going to take dog training by the time they get to there 3rd or 4 th dog. I think we are going to see training grow by leaps and bounds in the coming years. I think that having a lot of competetors that are seriously neck and neck with each other trial after trial can only make more growth.
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Postby Donna » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:45 pm

I received calls from friends also, all of which had a wonderful time at the WUSV Championship. Their comments applied more to judging, in that the judges were told not to give V scores unless the work was truly outstanding and correct. An example: in order to receive full points for the blind search, the dog had to display a strong and purposeful search of each blind by actively looking into the blind and not merely running around it, look at and acknowledge the handler at midpoint, and display the same speed from the beginning of the search all the way to the last blind. They were also looking for bona fide power. I heard recently that the US receives 40% more V scores than Europe -- is that accurate? Makes you wonder, would it be wiser (fairer) to have uniform judging whether you're in a club trial or a championship and maybe that's where we're headed given the recent clarification of the existing USCA rules? Some would argue there is a balance to keeping people happy and involved in the sport and honestly evaluating potential breeding stock. Scores aside, I heard there were some excellent quality dogs that for whatever reason, weather, stress of travel, just couldn't put it together.

Les, I think your GSD friend secretly harbors a desire to have a Mal! :D
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Postby sch3dana » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:08 pm

I just got back today and I have to say I was really saddened by what I saw. I am still looking for an explanation, so I won't say why I think the dogs looked so blah, but I will say that this is not how I remember the GSDs. I've always been a big fan of the aggression, power and big grips that I remember from my early days in Schutzhund (maybe I'm starting to remember like an old person). And the median of what I saw this weekend did not in any way remind me of the best GSDs that I have seen in my time in this sport, Pirol, Enzo, Tom Leefdaalhof, etc. Of course, there were exceptions- Nellie's Lexi was very strong in the protection as was Ralph Gilby's Billie (didn't see ob) and the Finnish dog Bacteroides Sera was a very nice bitch with intensity, drive and correctness in both b and c. Michaela Knoche had nice ob, but it was nothing special when compared to the best mals I have seen in ob.

I went to see this trial expecting to see world class dogs. What I saw were many so-so dogs with so-so training and fighting physical handicaps that were seriously impeding their ability to make the grips and perform the obedience with any degree of flash and precision. Either my standards have changed or the standards within the GSD world have changed. I don't want this to seem like a rant against GSDs. I really love good dogs of all kinds and I've always had a special afffection for really powerful GSDs in the protection phase. What I want to know is, where did they all go?
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Postby Mike Baker » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:45 am

I typed a lot. Then deleted all of it which in a nutshell said....

BOOOO! :!:

One thing I can say is that Tom H. and his club members, and the other clubs from the MidEast did a super job running the event. It was a great venue with a great host hotel and was well organized. Great job Tom.
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Postby Christopher Smith » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:50 pm

Attending this years WUSV was like visiting a terminally ill friend in the hospital. I sat there hoping that that the breed is just going through a bad phase, but having a feeling deep in the pit of my stomached that it’s dying a slow and horrible death.

What happened to the grips??? Remember when the GSD had full calm grips and GSD handlers teased Mal people about hectic bites? Well those days are over. I only saw about 10 dogs that had full hard biting. Most of the other dogs had grips that I would expect from an average Malinois. The only thing that the GSD had over the Mal in C phase was grips and now that advantage seems to be gone.

I’m still up in the air about why the GSD is doing so badly. My best guess is that the pendulum has swung too far away from the compulsion that the GSD was bred to accept and thrive on. They are trying to train a GSD like they would a Mal or Border Collie and the GSD is not reactive enough nor driven enough to be competitive with this type of training.

They also seem to be missing the ability to physically do the work. The “jumping” is a joke. If they have fast recalls or retrieves they can’t seem to stop before they bump the handler. Their legs flop around on the drives as if the front of the dog and the back of the dog are two different creatures. My fat ass could run the blinds faster than some of those dogs. They seem as though they were built by committee in the USSR with used parts.

The worst thing about it is that the GSD fanciers don’t seem to think it was bad. Most that I have talked to think the competition was great and the dogs were wonderful. But they have no idea what is happening in the Malinois world. They have shut their eyes and buried their heads in the sand. This is a vivid illustration why I think that the biggest mistake the AWMA has ever made was to not allow other breeds in out national. By doing so we are putting our heads in the sand right along with the GSD people. If we don’t stay informed about the best dogs, no matter the breed, one day we will find our dogs being railed on, on some other breeds forum. And we need to remember that the GSD has a huge influence on IPO.

But to end on a positive note the venue was top notch. The stadium food was good. The weather was great. And they sell Everclear in Kentucky.

Here is a video of the best GSD in the world doing protection. It’s a bad video, but it’s all I could find. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4xSqAbO1RM
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Postby Christopher Smith » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:54 pm

Donna wrote:I heard recently that the US receives 40% more V scores than Europe -- is that accurate?


I'm not sure if that's true. But if it is true, it's quite possible that the dogs in the US deserve 40% more V scores.
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Postby TamiS » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:33 pm

Hmm, glad I saved my money and didn't go from the reviews, although not terribly surprised.

Dana, your memory is not fading. :-) There are two special GSDs that I can think of that are truly quite incredible and insanely driven even when compared to mals. One is a dog named Jabina Falco (GA, I believe), and another named Atze (here in TN). My theory is that the trend followed by most GSD breeders is simply to buy a dog out of "last year's BSP winner", or to breed to the latest national champion, all the while having an incredible inability to read dogs.

Ah, well...more spots on the world team for melonheads at the all breed! :-o

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Postby Bob Miller » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:47 pm

Info about V scoring.


From the USA web site http://germanshepherddog.com/members/index.htm

2008 WUSV Judge's Meeting
September 24, 2008
USA Director of Judges, Mark Przybylski, attended the 2008 WUSV Judge's Meeting in Darmstadt, Germany. There were 59 Judges there from 30 different countries. The emphasis on the meeting was strongly geared to rules applications, evaluation of exercises, and point assessment based on quality of work, training, and behaviors. This meeting emphasized proper judging in accordance with the current rules.

The following is a summary of issues discussed at the meeting




WHAT MAKES THE “V” PERFORMANCE
One of the problems that has developed over the past few years, is the rating of “excellent” is given far too often. This seems to be more common as it relates to dogs of less character and genetics. In statistics gathered through Europe, dogs are given an “excellent” rating about 40% of the time. As compared to 10 plus years ago the number was 4% to 10%. Part of this is judges are not following the guidelines, not understanding the rules, and not having a clear understanding of character, temperament and genetics. All dogs, no matter what the breed, no matter of breed versus show, must be evaluated the same.

The dog’s temperament must be tested throughout. It starts at the beginning. It is strongly recommended that we use many of the adjective descriptors available to us to note what the animal demonstrates from the onset. This will help place the dog in the appropriate category and rating. In order for the dog to receive an “excellent” rating he must demonstrate the following;

Must be happy
Must be free
Must be correct in all parts of an exercise
Must be well trained
Must show harmony between dog and handler
Must show drive (temperament and character)
Must show balance in drives



There's more on this article on the web site

http://germanshepherddog.com/members/index.htm


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Postby Gunny » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:22 pm

I just got done watching the AWMA protection routines. Since were critiquing others to be fair we should throw ourselves in the hot seat, does anyone think that all those scores were deserved?
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Postby Sue » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:19 pm

Christopher,

Where were you? :lol:

There were some good routines. Nellie's dog was good, but she was nailed due to no secondary OB.

I was lucky again to be on the field with the helpers and Judges - talking to the apprentice judges. And seeing grips through a BIG lens gives you a whole other perspective. As well as dogs that would just travel with the helper - I like the ones that show the true fight and try to pull them down.

The problem with some good dogs is that the people handling them are not trainers or good handlers - handicaps the dog and the dog is usually retired for some reason or other.
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Postby Christopher Smith » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:07 pm

I was around. I wanted to ask Gabor to point you out but every time I saw him he was busy with his many adoring fans. :lol:

Nellie's dog looked strong. Nellie always has strong dogs. But, as you said, she did not have the secondary OB. But then I have to question, if the secondary OB was there would the dog have looked as strong?

And seeing grips through a BIG lens gives you a whole other perspective.


So what did you see? Good? Bad?
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Postby Greg » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:57 am

Gunny wrote:I just got done watching the AWMA protection routines. does anyone think that all those scores were deserved?

absolutely not, many gifts were given in that trial, but I'm still looking forward to the remaining vids that haven't been uploaded yet.
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Postby Sue » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:01 am

Christopher,

I was on the field, black shirt, jeans and blonde hair; running and shooting fotos. Or at the playground with Cara - you could still get some good sites.

Will email more alter. Off to work.
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